Clementine, you grief and anger are understandable and we all share it. But you're allowing it to bubble out of you as hate and vilification.
Your "research" is one-dimensional, inflammatory, polarizing and frames incredibly complex historical conflicts as black and white with zero context. This will not solve the problem.
Look, I know speaking from anger feels good, but it just perpetuates suffering. And I'm sick of all of this - the killing and atrocities, on both sides, since October 7th, literally, physically ill from it. My heart is breaking. We need peace - the entire region needs PEACE. This speech of yours, that offers no solutions, no calls for peace - just calls for more fighting, is not helpful.
There is a fire of madness and hatred raging in the Middle East and you, Dear Clementine, are just more gasoline.
The fact you say you’re “sick of all of this, the killing and atrocities on both sides since Oct 7” - as if this started on Oct 7 - says everything I need to know about where you stand on Israel’s repeated crimes. Frankly, I couldn’t give a fuck if you think this is unhelpful when it’s clear you think Israel is entitled to act with impunity. Take your handwringing and “it’s incredibly complex” elsewhere. It isn’t complex at all, it’s a 75 year history of pretty clear cut abuse and iron fisted oppression.
Ford, you have yet again proven your radicalism and disregard for all human life. I have lived through such things in my life, and as Leah mentioned, sick of death. Yet, the most concern I have is ill-researched radical writings. Dangerous to all, and WILL breed a future where all types of radicals will take advantage of soft democracies. NO radicalism or terrorism should be accepted under any circumstances and all its supporters should be deported from Australia. Put your money where your mouth is, and go and live in Iran (or with Hamas) and see how long you stay pure with your Feministic and terror loving ideas.
Leah - do you have over 4,000 reasons why a child in Palestine should be killed? I believe there is no reason a child should be killed.
You don’t seem to be able to talk about the reality of what is actually happening, just your opinion. Clementine has written facts here, which you have ignored.
Kirra, do you have one reason Hamas should shoot women while raping them? Do you have one reason to slaughter children and babies? Do you have one reason toddlers and civilians should be taken as hostages? Do you have one reason for a heinous militant group putting the lives of their brethren (Palestinian children and infants) at risk rather than their own? Wait until it is your family. Terror is what you breed when you follow the words Ford. Words of utter vitriolic internal bitterness. You are obviously as naive as all the young western kid brides who joined ISIS. Be very careful.
Before you tell me he’s biased, Pappe is a formerly Israeli professor of history. Formerly Israeli because he didn’t want any part of what Israel does to the Palestinians, and renounced his citizenship.
This movie has recently been made by 2 American Jewish women.
That includes giving Hamas notice of where they will be which risks IDF lives.
Do you know which side has indiscriminately launched rockets at civilian populations (not military targets) without warning populations to evacuate in advance? Hamas.
Hamas has launched 9,000 rockets into Israel since Oct 7. Why aren’t they spending money to help their citizens instead of buying more rockets to store in classrooms and under hospitals?
You have quite a lot of misinformation, but I’m not sure arguing about the facts will help. As you said, you are pretty uninformed on the issue. You still lack an informed understanding. What you left out is far more informative.
If you had a robust understanding, you’d know that.
Did you know that many of the people murdered by Hamas in the kibbutzim were activists that had spent their lives working to help Palestinians? Did you know they were driving Gazans into Israel for cancer treatment? Did you know that Israelis were forced to evacuate Gaza to give it to the Palestinians and that it was beautiful and full of state of the art organic farming? Did you know that Israel gives fuel, food, appliances, etc to Gazans to try to improve things for them, but that Hamas takes it all for weapons? Did you know that Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians because they want to have peace and prosperity for both Israelis and Palestinians? Did you know they destroyed all the farming within minutes of taking control? Did you know that Israel has offered a two state solution many times?
Did you see the March for Israel and how it was peaceful and the crowd sang songs of peace? That is who Jews are. Israel did not want to send all their 18 and 19 year old sons and daughters into Gaza. Did you know that Gazans were crossing into Israel to work in an effort to improve the relationship? Did you know that those very people
It’s not an apartheid when 20% of Israelis are Arabs with all the rights of Jews. They hold high office including the Supreme Court. Israelis live peacefully with Arab Israelis. It’s not a genocide when the population is rapidly increasing. That’s not what a genocide looks like. Israel could flatten Gaza in a moment and not risk the life of a single soldier. They have always had that ability. Trying to get civilians out of the way while you hunt the terrorists that attacked you, the terrorists hiding under hospitals and using civilians as shields, is what any nation would do.
You say “From the river to the sea…” So you want Israel erased from existence? You want to rid the world of the *only* country in the world that has a Jewish majority? Where do you expect them to go? This is the tiny safe haven the UN created for Jews. And it is the Jewish ancestral homeland.
So, what’s your plan?
The fact is, if Israel laid down its arms right now, there’d be a second Holocaust. If Hamas laid down its arms, there’d be a two state solution.
I want Hamas destroyed *because* I care about Palestinian lives *and* Jewish lives. I have prayed for the Palestinian children for decades. Don’t tell me what I care about. But Hamas are terrorists. It will cost lives to rid the world of Hamas and that is tragic. Not ridding the world of Hamas will cost even more lives. Such is the nature of terrorism.
If you have a better idea, I think we’d all love to hear it.
This response by Ford is arrogant, and she clearly is not qualified to speak on the subject. Her writings are at best amateurish with a corrupt mind. She reminds me of someone who has much more living and growing up to do. I agree with Meryl
South Africa - One of the most corrupt, dirty governments in existence (similar to Iran, North Korea and Palestine), all supporters of terror. I hope you do not have children to bear witness to the horrors you wish to breed.
Please do yourself a favour and read a book so that you can stop starting the story of this conflict with the atrocities of the 7th of October. Hamas didn’t just wake up one morning and decided that they’d like to commit war crimes just for fun.
To safeguard the children of this world, every Iranian-backed violent raping terrorist must be eradicated and with them, every radicalised ideology to protect our daughters and grandchildren. Simply leave Israel and democratic countries alone and they will leave you alone. Bring the filth of self-serving ideologies that violently rape and destroy to your doorstep; you will reap what you sow.
I agree Clementine. Israelis are colonists, they have seized someone else's land by force of arms, in much the same way that many European Powers siezed other countries, displaced the people and stole their land. In fact the US was founded in this manner, but it doesn't make it right. In fact Australia too was founded in this way, justified in law by the legal fiction of 'Terra nullius ', ie that it was nobody's land, or empty land.
Not in any extremist literature. With an open mind, it is easy to find. The Middle East is complicated. Some want to live in peace; many live with extreme racial hatred. They support terrorism. Do not bring that to Australia. It is unwelcome
These are ALL the standard issue ADL talking points disseminated to their database to try and make a simple proposition complicated.
I’d much rather listen to Norman Finkelstein, a leading Political Scientist with 4 decades of experience in this field. Not that it should matter, but just so that I can head off your predictable cries of bias and antisemitism, his parents are holocaust survivors. All other family members on either side were murdered by the Nazis.
Here he is, being interviewed on your poster boy, Ben Shapiro’s platform, by Candace Owens, less than 24 hours ago.
If nothing else, just watch the first 5 minutes. Shame on you.
Do you believe no war is just, then? We should have just let the Nazis take over the world? Because children die in all wars. All the more when they aren’t evacuated so they can be used as shields by terrorists.
If you are concerned about babies and not just Palastinian babies, surely you must be protesting for the release of babies and children held by Hamas. And you must realize that it is problematic to take the side of those who put babies in ovens and set them on fire in front of their parents on Oct 7.
I will not ever agree that children are a morally defensible collateral damage in violence, war or genocide (which is what this is). The fact you can morally justify it in your mind disgusts me. The stories about babies being put in ovens is unproven (and disgraceful, given its graphic horror) propaganda. Do you know who did put a child into an oven though? A Zionist militia, in the massacre of the Palestinian village of Tantura.
Of course I want the hostages released safely, and to be returned to their families *especially* the children. How do you think carpet bombing the area where they’re being held is protecting them?
Honestly, you need to go away and reflect deeply on your disregard for Palestinian lives. And history.
It is not a disregard for Palestinian lives. Each one is as precious as the Israeli's and foreigners held in captivity and murdered in the most atrocious ways. Hamas has hidden the hostages amongst the civilians. Worse still, the murdering terrorists are hiding amongst the civilians, in hospitals, amongst the UN, using mothers, children, men and the elderly as shields. This was planned, the deaths in Palestine were planned and people continued to to die as per Hama's plans. What type of tyrants do this? Hamas is totally to blame for every death since 7th October and many more Palestinians prior to the 7th Oct living under dictatorial conditions.
The British Empire took over half the world, and other European countries took over most of the remainder. Russia and China though resisted successfully!
We thank Israel for giving their lives to rid these self-servicing monsters from our world. Every Israeli life is sacrificed for all persons with an interest in a civilised world. The alternative is these numerous Iranian supported violent rapists will be the (real) monsters under the bed every child in every corner of the earth shall fear at night when trying to go to sleep - especially the little girls.
Reading with a balanced mind helps one gain a clear view. The truth remains present. Why do you think we have airport checks - Iranian terrorists. Is this another fact you wish to deny.
incredibly sad. That anybody can talk about this conflict in such binary terms is deeply depressing, yet, as these last 80 days have shown clearly, entirely unsurprising.
Yes, Iran are a deeply misogynistic and oppressive regime, as are many of the other Islamic countries in the region. I am an observant Muslim, and I’d always choose to live in Australia over any of those countries, but this has precisely nothing to do with the ongoing murder, starvation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.
If your argument is that the atrocities being committed by Israel including murdering at least 8000 children are justified in the pursuit of a “more civilized world” then you should just say so.
The Hamas and IDF terrorists both have somewhat of an excuse in that they are brainwashed from birth. You, on the other hand, have all the information required to have an informed view on this, but clearly have chosen not to study any of it. What’s your excuse?
Seek it or choose to ignore it, but truth prevails. Many Muslims live in Israel without being oppressed. Every innocent life lost is devasting for family, friends, and communities. The facts are that the people of Palestine convincingly voted for a terrorist leadership, or were they forced? Hamas entered Israel and raped, murdered and kidnapped innocents at will. Palestinian civilians helped in this lowest form of humanity. The most concerning and telling fact of the psyche of a number of Palestinians is that it has all been glorified in videos. All Hamas has to do to protect the citizens of Gaza is to let the hostages go and take responsibility for their inhuman behaviour, and the killing will stop. Hamas and ALL those who support such depravity are responsible for every life taken, from infants through to the elderly in Palestine and Israel. Israel (or any reasonable country) has every right to return its citizens back home and any reasonable country would do so. Israel gave the Palestinian people constant warnings to move out of the way as they searched for their stolen citizens. There is NO genocide. Calling for "river to sea" is genocidal. Are you one of those? Israel is not targeting civilians; in fact, Hamas relishes every atrocity to gain international sympathy. Did Hamas force the civilians to stay and use them as shields? Did Hamas force medical and UN staff to lie about the use of hospitals and schools as military bases? Did Hamas build houses and facilities for the Palestinians with the hundreds of millions given to them, or did they build tunnels under their citizens? Clearly, using a little common sense, has this not been their strategy from day one? No one wants terror on their doorstep. With one goal in mind, Hamas has for 16 years indiscriminately terrorised innocent Israelis(Muslim and Jew alike). When is enough enough? Palestine overstepped the mark on 7/10, and every reasonably-minded person would agree that Israel must bring every one of the hostages back home. Hamas must go, or as a Hamas supporter, I ask, is this the future you see for Australia? For 25 years, I lived under a terror regime and with world support, such a regime decimated its economy and ensured its citizens continued to live in poverty and fear.
So... as to Israel's 75 years of blatant US-veto protected ignorance of UN Resolutions, UN Human Rights Reporting from Special Rapporteurs and Human Rights Council Commissions of Enquiry, NGO findings, International Court investigations on Israel's conduct - I suppose EVERYONE is being unfair and biased? - https://sleekitscotsman.substack.com/i/139421453/un-security-council-and-general-assembly-resolutions
But then I suppose rubbishing the UN is stated policy by the local organisation meant to represent the interests of all those of the Jewish faith in Australia rather than just pro-Israeli, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry:
Policy Platform - amongst others: [on "United Nations Bias"] "40.2 RECORDS that the accusations against Israel are scurrilous, false and without basis;" - https://www.ecaj.org.au/policies/#32
And the objective of this policy platform is to:
" enhance general Australian values of democracy and human rights; individual freedom and the rule of law; social justice and compassion; mutual understanding and respect; and a fair go for all."
Shame on you EJAC and I feel sorry for brothers and sisters of the Jewish faith who feel differently from supporting extremist Israeli State policy positions and denial of all criticism. The Jewish Faith IS NOT Israeli-State policy.
A rather narrow view, as no blood should have been spilt. It is not worth commenting on an extremist viewpoint, except that no terrorism should be supported, and those that support such in-humans, whether Palestinian or of other decent, should be regarded with equal suspicion. Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to own their own country but chose not to, but instead supported a terror organisation that spent all Palestinian finances on terror-related activities, including 16 years of continuous bombings into Israel. Jews and Muslims live in harmony side-by-side in Israel, and Israel has every right to defend its citizens against a hostile nation. Additionally, it has every right to return its hostages. Anyone would do the same, especially when Palestinian 'civilians' have proven to have involvement. The plain truth is that Palestine has brought this war upon itself. If Palestine was a peace loving nation all hostages would have been released. In fact, the atrocities of the 7/10 (which you speak against, yet in commentary, you clearly support) would have never happened if Palestinians did not approve of such activities. All siphoning of billions of dollars into aggressor tactics tells a different story of the Palestinian psyche. This we have to be very careful of if we wish to preserve our freedom of speech and safety from extremists.
a) a tone-deafness in supporting humanity, a ceasefire = supporting Hamas (even when 153 countries v 10 votes for the Dec 12 in the UN) and
b) Israeli lives are more precious than Palestinian lives.
The point under international law is proportionality of response v. indiscriminate out of proportion mass attacks by Israel (2023 - but also 2021 - 2014 - for which the ICC is actively investigating as a potential war crime). So there's lack of proportion and a track record.
To Quote: "And again, none of this frees Hamas from responsibility, but Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians, just as what Israel is doing right now doesn’t represent all Israelis or indeed, Jewish people."
NO life is more important than another. Equally, it is a basic human right to feel safe at home. This is why I look at all viewpoints before making a commentary, unlike Ford’s filth and singular commentary. Someone you support - Interesting - she must be stopped for inciting hate in many quarters. I support any nation moderately voted in by its citizens that acts to protect its citizens from invasion or any form of terror activities, especially when under constant threat. This is not one-sided. I have lived it and moved to a more open country. I will fight not to have self-focused views raise their ugly head in Australia, leading to deprivation for the majority.
Wonderful country, Israel. Thank you for your honest, moral sacrifices, as you rightly stand against the lowest form of humanity, whose sole aim is monstrous destruction. We from Australia, who have lived under brutal governments (i.e. African, Asian and East European terrorising dictators and Islamic terrorists), SALUTE YOU and stand with you in your complex yet vital mission of standing up for just societies. FREE ALL HOSTAGES
Thank you Clementine, this is a great speech which also educated me even more about the issue.
I was at the rally in Adelaide the other weekend, great to see so many people there standing up for the human rights of Palestinian people.
The Israeli Government is an elected government of a country and should be held accountable to the international laws it has broken. As we would expect from another country.
If you think being educated by Ford is a good thing, you support Islamic terrorism or have internal issues, in which case it is probably best you get some help.
Naivete is costly and weak. When one's morals have reached a point of corruption to be vile enough to support the ungodly acts of Hamas (and all such Iran-backed terror groups) perpetrated against Palestinians, and now Israelis, you prove yourself to be of the same ilk as the perpetrators. And, as sure as time tells the truth, You invite the vilest sickness into your home. On conducting a little research, it is clear Clementine Ford is not one to be taken seriously. Her narcissism and radicalism certainly do not form a base from which to be objective. As a man, I consider myself a far more trustworthy feminist than Ford will ever be. I am a strong believer in the rights of women. All women of all cultures, otherwise you are racist and a hypocrite. I do not cower or distinguish against the innocent women who have been inhumanly disrespected and systematically raped and butchered.
I one hundred percent support your post., every word of it. There is so much silence, double talk, denial and lies in fact, out there. Not only in regard to Palestine, but also First Nations P,eople, the homeless, and other disadvantaged groups.
Sure there are details with every historical event, but the basic truth is that people pushed themselves into the borders- and even literal HOMES- of people who were already living there. Doesn't get much more black and white than that.
Well written. I just don’t understand how the “antisemite” card can be dropped on you so blatantly, and why this vicious idiot at the AJA goes after anyone with a pulse (audience) who dares criticise Israel. FFS. I just hope people are waking up to this blatant BS - https://www.facebook.com/share/p/YadQnz96vnNBJfjD/?mibextid=WC7FNe
Ford falls into the lowest form of Humanity, as does anyone who supports rape, child murder and monstrous Iranian terrorism. None of this is welcome in Australia and her and similar such vocalists need to be silenced one way or another through anti-hate invoking laws.
South Africa has launched a case at the UN's international court of justice accusing Israel of genocide. Israel has responded by (deep sigh) accusing South Africa of "blood libel".
Blood libel, for those who don't know, refers to the way medieval Europeans would falsely accuse Jews of murdering Christians in blood sacrifices in order to justify persecuting them. Which is to say, Israel has responded to South Africa's accusations by accusing South Africa of anti-semitism.
False accusations of anti-semitism are all Israel and its defenders have left. It's the only tool left in their toolbox. Once you've exhausted the "But Hamas!" and "But October 7!" excuses they make for Israel's deliberate butchery of civilians via airstrikes and siege warfare, false accusations of hating Jews is all that remains.
And it's so sick, because it exploits a healthy impulse in those of us who oppose racism and genocide, and does so *in order to defend racist acts of genocide*. It causes people who care deeply about human rights to take a step back and say "Hold on, am I guilty of embodying the same hateful prejudices which led to the Holocaust?" and shuts us down and shuts us up, even as Israel rolls out its own holocaust against Palestinians.
It exploits a noble, healthy inclination we cultivate in ourselves in good faith in order to support the horrific genocidal nightmare in Gaza in entirely bad faith. It exploits our good nature to advance a profoundly evil cause. It's despicable. It's depraved.
But fewer and fewer people are buying it. There's only so many times the boy can falsely cry wolf before the villagers stop running to his defense. Hopefully this desensitization that Israel and its apologists have created doesn't have dark consequences in the future. It's just one more ugly thing they have birthed into the world that the rest of us will have to bring consciousness to.
Predictably a) Obfuscating the whole Jewish faith with pro-Israeli State Policy - for false accusations of antisemitism and b) Obfuscating a genuine concern for human rights and indiscriminate murder with "pro-Hamas". I DEPLORE 7 Oct as I do Israel's current actions, and continued murder is not going to destroy Hamas. Show some humanity.
You speak in highly abstract meaning, and when quoted in such insular terms, is simply meaningless jargon - in other words trying to baffle with BS. Having lived for much of life under extremists, the likes of which you support, and then you quote South Africa as a country of morals, explains much. Such corrupt countries you would expect to support extremist views. Thank you for clearly stating your true moral stance
South Africa - let's agree to differ - noting ANY other country could refer Israel to the ICJ for genocide based on multiple opinions.
The actual point of Catilin's post is false accusations of antisemitism. So remove the first two lines of her statement to keep yourself happy, and you're left with Israel's response to anyone who would have raised that claim or others similar - patently untrue.
Other point you haven't addressed - you continue to conflate those who call for a humanitarian ceasefire with "Hamas Supporters".
So in addition to pro-Palestinian HUMAN rights supporters (as I've said above NOT Pro-Hamas) I suppose that 153 countries of the United Nations voting for a Ceasefire v 10 voting against (including Israel, US) are Hamas supporters completely wrong? Including 30 countries who switched their previous abstention to a Yes Ceasefire vote on 12 Dec.
But of course rubbishing and discrediting the UN is official Israeli Government policy, taken up locally here by pro-Israeli lobby groups as per my other thread.
The UN has yet to suitably condemn Hamas. The vast majority of those that sit on the UN represent countries run by dictators and many support extremists. So lets use common sense with regard to UN commentary. It cannot be trusted and has become worthless in world equality and peace.
Let's use common sense then re. the UN (parking from a moment your assertion that of the 194 countries "a vast majority" are run by dictators... ): 153 countries - voting YES for a ceasefire are they all wrong Hamas-supporting dictatorships? (noting only 98 of them would have needed to vote YES to pass the resolution - so let's assume 98 aren't Hamas supporting dictatorships for a minute).
Forgetting the semantics of condemning people by name (which by the way I agree should be done), an actual ceasefire to stop the killing is more important than offending someone.
Likud’s 1977 founding document reveals its position that:
… between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
Of course, this was written in 1977 – but critics of Hamas don’t afford it this concession vis-a-vis its 1988 charter. While this Likud statement doesn’t possess the racist sentiments of the Hamas charter, the practical implications denying the possibility of two states co-existing are more or less the same.
Lest we think that the Likud’s 1977 position is anachronistic, its 1999 electoral platform reiterates that:
The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.
Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem.
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
This platform has never been rescinded. Current Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu was also exposed in a 2001 video bragging that he “stopped the Oslo Accords” after receiving US guarantees that Israel would not be required to withdraw from “specified military locations” – chosen by himself, including the whole of the Jordan Valley/eastern border of the West Bank – in exchange for signing the 1997 Hebron Agreement.
Clementine, you grief and anger are understandable and we all share it. But you're allowing it to bubble out of you as hate and vilification.
Your "research" is one-dimensional, inflammatory, polarizing and frames incredibly complex historical conflicts as black and white with zero context. This will not solve the problem.
Look, I know speaking from anger feels good, but it just perpetuates suffering. And I'm sick of all of this - the killing and atrocities, on both sides, since October 7th, literally, physically ill from it. My heart is breaking. We need peace - the entire region needs PEACE. This speech of yours, that offers no solutions, no calls for peace - just calls for more fighting, is not helpful.
There is a fire of madness and hatred raging in the Middle East and you, Dear Clementine, are just more gasoline.
The fact you say you’re “sick of all of this, the killing and atrocities on both sides since Oct 7” - as if this started on Oct 7 - says everything I need to know about where you stand on Israel’s repeated crimes. Frankly, I couldn’t give a fuck if you think this is unhelpful when it’s clear you think Israel is entitled to act with impunity. Take your handwringing and “it’s incredibly complex” elsewhere. It isn’t complex at all, it’s a 75 year history of pretty clear cut abuse and iron fisted oppression.
Ford, you have yet again proven your radicalism and disregard for all human life. I have lived through such things in my life, and as Leah mentioned, sick of death. Yet, the most concern I have is ill-researched radical writings. Dangerous to all, and WILL breed a future where all types of radicals will take advantage of soft democracies. NO radicalism or terrorism should be accepted under any circumstances and all its supporters should be deported from Australia. Put your money where your mouth is, and go and live in Iran (or with Hamas) and see how long you stay pure with your Feministic and terror loving ideas.
You've missed my point:
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-hateful-rhetoric-connects-to-real-world-violence/
Leah - do you have over 4,000 reasons why a child in Palestine should be killed? I believe there is no reason a child should be killed.
You don’t seem to be able to talk about the reality of what is actually happening, just your opinion. Clementine has written facts here, which you have ignored.
Kirra, do you have one reason Hamas should shoot women while raping them? Do you have one reason to slaughter children and babies? Do you have one reason toddlers and civilians should be taken as hostages? Do you have one reason for a heinous militant group putting the lives of their brethren (Palestinian children and infants) at risk rather than their own? Wait until it is your family. Terror is what you breed when you follow the words Ford. Words of utter vitriolic internal bitterness. You are obviously as naive as all the young western kid brides who joined ISIS. Be very careful.
What exactly in the transcript did you read as hate and vilification?
Please read this:
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/my-israeli-friends-this-is-why-i-support-palestinians-ilan-pappe/
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/5/why-israel-wants-to-erase-context-and-history-in-the-war-on-gaza
Before you tell me he’s biased, Pappe is a formerly Israeli professor of history. Formerly Israeli because he didn’t want any part of what Israel does to the Palestinians, and renounced his citizenship.
This movie has recently been made by 2 American Jewish women.
https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2023/nov/12/israelism-documentary-american-jewish-israel-palestine-conflict
Marion Ingram is an 87 year old holocaust survivor and published author.
https://youtu.be/oMwzYPxJETg?si=ZwMTBk60kdgLMEQA
Omer Bertov is an Israeli American who is a professor of Holocaust studies at Brown University. He served as a soldier in the IDF in the 1970s.
https://youtu.be/4mZMkNJYr-0?si=TgYXVxAZBlwI2EWf
I hope you find these articles and clips sufficiently multi dimensional.
That includes giving Hamas notice of where they will be which risks IDF lives.
Do you know which side has indiscriminately launched rockets at civilian populations (not military targets) without warning populations to evacuate in advance? Hamas.
Hamas has launched 9,000 rockets into Israel since Oct 7. Why aren’t they spending money to help their citizens instead of buying more rockets to store in classrooms and under hospitals?
You have quite a lot of misinformation, but I’m not sure arguing about the facts will help. As you said, you are pretty uninformed on the issue. You still lack an informed understanding. What you left out is far more informative.
If you had a robust understanding, you’d know that.
Did you know that many of the people murdered by Hamas in the kibbutzim were activists that had spent their lives working to help Palestinians? Did you know they were driving Gazans into Israel for cancer treatment? Did you know that Israelis were forced to evacuate Gaza to give it to the Palestinians and that it was beautiful and full of state of the art organic farming? Did you know that Israel gives fuel, food, appliances, etc to Gazans to try to improve things for them, but that Hamas takes it all for weapons? Did you know that Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians because they want to have peace and prosperity for both Israelis and Palestinians? Did you know they destroyed all the farming within minutes of taking control? Did you know that Israel has offered a two state solution many times?
Did you see the March for Israel and how it was peaceful and the crowd sang songs of peace? That is who Jews are. Israel did not want to send all their 18 and 19 year old sons and daughters into Gaza. Did you know that Gazans were crossing into Israel to work in an effort to improve the relationship? Did you know that those very people
It’s not an apartheid when 20% of Israelis are Arabs with all the rights of Jews. They hold high office including the Supreme Court. Israelis live peacefully with Arab Israelis. It’s not a genocide when the population is rapidly increasing. That’s not what a genocide looks like. Israel could flatten Gaza in a moment and not risk the life of a single soldier. They have always had that ability. Trying to get civilians out of the way while you hunt the terrorists that attacked you, the terrorists hiding under hospitals and using civilians as shields, is what any nation would do.
You say “From the river to the sea…” So you want Israel erased from existence? You want to rid the world of the *only* country in the world that has a Jewish majority? Where do you expect them to go? This is the tiny safe haven the UN created for Jews. And it is the Jewish ancestral homeland.
So, what’s your plan?
The fact is, if Israel laid down its arms right now, there’d be a second Holocaust. If Hamas laid down its arms, there’d be a two state solution.
I want Hamas destroyed *because* I care about Palestinian lives *and* Jewish lives. I have prayed for the Palestinian children for decades. Don’t tell me what I care about. But Hamas are terrorists. It will cost lives to rid the world of Hamas and that is tragic. Not ridding the world of Hamas will cost even more lives. Such is the nature of terrorism.
If you have a better idea, I think we’d all love to hear it.
I hope one day you receive the deprogramming treatment you need and become a better human.
This response by Ford is arrogant, and she clearly is not qualified to speak on the subject. Her writings are at best amateurish with a corrupt mind. She reminds me of someone who has much more living and growing up to do. I agree with Meryl
personal insults vs facts
South africa are taking us to ICJ and still in denial
South Africa - One of the most corrupt, dirty governments in existence (similar to Iran, North Korea and Palestine), all supporters of terror. I hope you do not have children to bear witness to the horrors you wish to breed.
One day we will all be judged for our stance. That day will come, and I hope soon.
Please do yourself a favour and read a book so that you can stop starting the story of this conflict with the atrocities of the 7th of October. Hamas didn’t just wake up one morning and decided that they’d like to commit war crimes just for fun.
https://www.amazon.com.au/Israel-Palestine-Avi-Shlaim/dp/1844676560?nodl=1&dplnkId=aa323078-eb58-4a44-9bf7-4a96c7a83ddf
Or this one:
https://www.amazon.com.au/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553?nodl=1&dplnkId=6e40d447-5475-49f5-a1b5-d461d4973de7
Or watch this - it is a balanced interview by an Israeli professor of genocide, Omer Bartov from a couple of days ago
https://youtu.be/T8qGubNO_c0?si=QPpwxwompUTWdYAc
Or Shlomo Yitzchak, an American settler on the west bank that had his eyes opened
https://youtu.be/P-isvgX7OvA?si=5c-oXq5aQU4JOsTM
To safeguard the children of this world, every Iranian-backed violent raping terrorist must be eradicated and with them, every radicalised ideology to protect our daughters and grandchildren. Simply leave Israel and democratic countries alone and they will leave you alone. Bring the filth of self-serving ideologies that violently rape and destroy to your doorstep; you will reap what you sow.
How stupid you are, Clemmie!
I agree Clementine. Israelis are colonists, they have seized someone else's land by force of arms, in much the same way that many European Powers siezed other countries, displaced the people and stole their land. In fact the US was founded in this manner, but it doesn't make it right. In fact Australia too was founded in this way, justified in law by the legal fiction of 'Terra nullius ', ie that it was nobody's land, or empty land.
Read the True history of Israel.
And where is that?
Not in any extremist literature. With an open mind, it is easy to find. The Middle East is complicated. Some want to live in peace; many live with extreme racial hatred. They support terrorism. Do not bring that to Australia. It is unwelcome
These are ALL the standard issue ADL talking points disseminated to their database to try and make a simple proposition complicated.
I’d much rather listen to Norman Finkelstein, a leading Political Scientist with 4 decades of experience in this field. Not that it should matter, but just so that I can head off your predictable cries of bias and antisemitism, his parents are holocaust survivors. All other family members on either side were murdered by the Nazis.
Here he is, being interviewed on your poster boy, Ben Shapiro’s platform, by Candace Owens, less than 24 hours ago.
If nothing else, just watch the first 5 minutes. Shame on you.
https://youtu.be/te1y7ahp2LQ?si=TiAuaPRne5xGl4C2
none of this justifies genocide
there is never an excuse for genocide
never again meant never again for everyone
Do you believe no war is just, then? We should have just let the Nazis take over the world? Because children die in all wars. All the more when they aren’t evacuated so they can be used as shields by terrorists.
If you are concerned about babies and not just Palastinian babies, surely you must be protesting for the release of babies and children held by Hamas. And you must realize that it is problematic to take the side of those who put babies in ovens and set them on fire in front of their parents on Oct 7.
I will not ever agree that children are a morally defensible collateral damage in violence, war or genocide (which is what this is). The fact you can morally justify it in your mind disgusts me. The stories about babies being put in ovens is unproven (and disgraceful, given its graphic horror) propaganda. Do you know who did put a child into an oven though? A Zionist militia, in the massacre of the Palestinian village of Tantura.
Of course I want the hostages released safely, and to be returned to their families *especially* the children. How do you think carpet bombing the area where they’re being held is protecting them?
Honestly, you need to go away and reflect deeply on your disregard for Palestinian lives. And history.
It is not a disregard for Palestinian lives. Each one is as precious as the Israeli's and foreigners held in captivity and murdered in the most atrocious ways. Hamas has hidden the hostages amongst the civilians. Worse still, the murdering terrorists are hiding amongst the civilians, in hospitals, amongst the UN, using mothers, children, men and the elderly as shields. This was planned, the deaths in Palestine were planned and people continued to to die as per Hama's plans. What type of tyrants do this? Hamas is totally to blame for every death since 7th October and many more Palestinians prior to the 7th Oct living under dictatorial conditions.
The British Empire took over half the world, and other European countries took over most of the remainder. Russia and China though resisted successfully!
We thank Israel for giving their lives to rid these self-servicing monsters from our world. Every Israeli life is sacrificed for all persons with an interest in a civilised world. The alternative is these numerous Iranian supported violent rapists will be the (real) monsters under the bed every child in every corner of the earth shall fear at night when trying to go to sleep - especially the little girls.
where is the research
Reading with a balanced mind helps one gain a clear view. The truth remains present. Why do you think we have airport checks - Iranian terrorists. Is this another fact you wish to deny.
Ian, reading your comments make me
incredibly sad. That anybody can talk about this conflict in such binary terms is deeply depressing, yet, as these last 80 days have shown clearly, entirely unsurprising.
Yes, Iran are a deeply misogynistic and oppressive regime, as are many of the other Islamic countries in the region. I am an observant Muslim, and I’d always choose to live in Australia over any of those countries, but this has precisely nothing to do with the ongoing murder, starvation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.
If your argument is that the atrocities being committed by Israel including murdering at least 8000 children are justified in the pursuit of a “more civilized world” then you should just say so.
The Hamas and IDF terrorists both have somewhat of an excuse in that they are brainwashed from birth. You, on the other hand, have all the information required to have an informed view on this, but clearly have chosen not to study any of it. What’s your excuse?
Seek it or choose to ignore it, but truth prevails. Many Muslims live in Israel without being oppressed. Every innocent life lost is devasting for family, friends, and communities. The facts are that the people of Palestine convincingly voted for a terrorist leadership, or were they forced? Hamas entered Israel and raped, murdered and kidnapped innocents at will. Palestinian civilians helped in this lowest form of humanity. The most concerning and telling fact of the psyche of a number of Palestinians is that it has all been glorified in videos. All Hamas has to do to protect the citizens of Gaza is to let the hostages go and take responsibility for their inhuman behaviour, and the killing will stop. Hamas and ALL those who support such depravity are responsible for every life taken, from infants through to the elderly in Palestine and Israel. Israel (or any reasonable country) has every right to return its citizens back home and any reasonable country would do so. Israel gave the Palestinian people constant warnings to move out of the way as they searched for their stolen citizens. There is NO genocide. Calling for "river to sea" is genocidal. Are you one of those? Israel is not targeting civilians; in fact, Hamas relishes every atrocity to gain international sympathy. Did Hamas force the civilians to stay and use them as shields? Did Hamas force medical and UN staff to lie about the use of hospitals and schools as military bases? Did Hamas build houses and facilities for the Palestinians with the hundreds of millions given to them, or did they build tunnels under their citizens? Clearly, using a little common sense, has this not been their strategy from day one? No one wants terror on their doorstep. With one goal in mind, Hamas has for 16 years indiscriminately terrorised innocent Israelis(Muslim and Jew alike). When is enough enough? Palestine overstepped the mark on 7/10, and every reasonably-minded person would agree that Israel must bring every one of the hostages back home. Hamas must go, or as a Hamas supporter, I ask, is this the future you see for Australia? For 25 years, I lived under a terror regime and with world support, such a regime decimated its economy and ensured its citizens continued to live in poverty and fear.
So... as to Israel's 75 years of blatant US-veto protected ignorance of UN Resolutions, UN Human Rights Reporting from Special Rapporteurs and Human Rights Council Commissions of Enquiry, NGO findings, International Court investigations on Israel's conduct - I suppose EVERYONE is being unfair and biased? - https://sleekitscotsman.substack.com/i/139421453/un-security-council-and-general-assembly-resolutions
But then I suppose rubbishing the UN is stated policy by the local organisation meant to represent the interests of all those of the Jewish faith in Australia rather than just pro-Israeli, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry:
Policy Platform - amongst others: [on "United Nations Bias"] "40.2 RECORDS that the accusations against Israel are scurrilous, false and without basis;" - https://www.ecaj.org.au/policies/#32
And the objective of this policy platform is to:
" enhance general Australian values of democracy and human rights; individual freedom and the rule of law; social justice and compassion; mutual understanding and respect; and a fair go for all."
Shame on you EJAC and I feel sorry for brothers and sisters of the Jewish faith who feel differently from supporting extremist Israeli State policy positions and denial of all criticism. The Jewish Faith IS NOT Israeli-State policy.
A rather narrow view, as no blood should have been spilt. It is not worth commenting on an extremist viewpoint, except that no terrorism should be supported, and those that support such in-humans, whether Palestinian or of other decent, should be regarded with equal suspicion. Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to own their own country but chose not to, but instead supported a terror organisation that spent all Palestinian finances on terror-related activities, including 16 years of continuous bombings into Israel. Jews and Muslims live in harmony side-by-side in Israel, and Israel has every right to defend its citizens against a hostile nation. Additionally, it has every right to return its hostages. Anyone would do the same, especially when Palestinian 'civilians' have proven to have involvement. The plain truth is that Palestine has brought this war upon itself. If Palestine was a peace loving nation all hostages would have been released. In fact, the atrocities of the 7/10 (which you speak against, yet in commentary, you clearly support) would have never happened if Palestinians did not approve of such activities. All siphoning of billions of dollars into aggressor tactics tells a different story of the Palestinian psyche. This we have to be very careful of if we wish to preserve our freedom of speech and safety from extremists.
What I'm hearing - consistently from you - is
a) a tone-deafness in supporting humanity, a ceasefire = supporting Hamas (even when 153 countries v 10 votes for the Dec 12 in the UN) and
b) Israeli lives are more precious than Palestinian lives.
The point under international law is proportionality of response v. indiscriminate out of proportion mass attacks by Israel (2023 - but also 2021 - 2014 - for which the ICC is actively investigating as a potential war crime). So there's lack of proportion and a track record.
Here's a quick video - which could have been from yesterday - from 2021 from a satirical comedian on the conflict then: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cz25YTgS-9F/
To Quote: "And again, none of this frees Hamas from responsibility, but Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians, just as what Israel is doing right now doesn’t represent all Israelis or indeed, Jewish people."
NO life is more important than another. Equally, it is a basic human right to feel safe at home. This is why I look at all viewpoints before making a commentary, unlike Ford’s filth and singular commentary. Someone you support - Interesting - she must be stopped for inciting hate in many quarters. I support any nation moderately voted in by its citizens that acts to protect its citizens from invasion or any form of terror activities, especially when under constant threat. This is not one-sided. I have lived it and moved to a more open country. I will fight not to have self-focused views raise their ugly head in Australia, leading to deprivation for the majority.
Wonderful country, Israel. Thank you for your honest, moral sacrifices, as you rightly stand against the lowest form of humanity, whose sole aim is monstrous destruction. We from Australia, who have lived under brutal governments (i.e. African, Asian and East European terrorising dictators and Islamic terrorists), SALUTE YOU and stand with you in your complex yet vital mission of standing up for just societies. FREE ALL HOSTAGES
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.JU0.2cWO.458aYjf8spJt&smid=url-share
What a stupid one sided simplification of history. Stick to what you think you know and stay out of foreign affairs.
Thank you Clementine, this is a great speech which also educated me even more about the issue.
I was at the rally in Adelaide the other weekend, great to see so many people there standing up for the human rights of Palestinian people.
The Israeli Government is an elected government of a country and should be held accountable to the international laws it has broken. As we would expect from another country.
If you think being educated by Ford is a good thing, you support Islamic terrorism or have internal issues, in which case it is probably best you get some help.
Naivete is costly and weak. When one's morals have reached a point of corruption to be vile enough to support the ungodly acts of Hamas (and all such Iran-backed terror groups) perpetrated against Palestinians, and now Israelis, you prove yourself to be of the same ilk as the perpetrators. And, as sure as time tells the truth, You invite the vilest sickness into your home. On conducting a little research, it is clear Clementine Ford is not one to be taken seriously. Her narcissism and radicalism certainly do not form a base from which to be objective. As a man, I consider myself a far more trustworthy feminist than Ford will ever be. I am a strong believer in the rights of women. All women of all cultures, otherwise you are racist and a hypocrite. I do not cower or distinguish against the innocent women who have been inhumanly disrespected and systematically raped and butchered.
I one hundred percent support your post., every word of it. There is so much silence, double talk, denial and lies in fact, out there. Not only in regard to Palestine, but also First Nations P,eople, the homeless, and other disadvantaged groups.
Thank you for this.
Sure there are details with every historical event, but the basic truth is that people pushed themselves into the borders- and even literal HOMES- of people who were already living there. Doesn't get much more black and white than that.
Have a good New Year, The Scotsman, and thank you for the discourse. Have a safe New Year, free of terrorism 😊
Well written. I just don’t understand how the “antisemite” card can be dropped on you so blatantly, and why this vicious idiot at the AJA goes after anyone with a pulse (audience) who dares criticise Israel. FFS. I just hope people are waking up to this blatant BS - https://www.facebook.com/share/p/YadQnz96vnNBJfjD/?mibextid=WC7FNe
Ford falls into the lowest form of Humanity, as does anyone who supports rape, child murder and monstrous Iranian terrorism. None of this is welcome in Australia and her and similar such vocalists need to be silenced one way or another through anti-hate invoking laws.
I think Caitlin Johnstone puts the current South African action in the ICJ eloquently - https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1740860137991204994
Verbose:
South Africa has launched a case at the UN's international court of justice accusing Israel of genocide. Israel has responded by (deep sigh) accusing South Africa of "blood libel".
Blood libel, for those who don't know, refers to the way medieval Europeans would falsely accuse Jews of murdering Christians in blood sacrifices in order to justify persecuting them. Which is to say, Israel has responded to South Africa's accusations by accusing South Africa of anti-semitism.
False accusations of anti-semitism are all Israel and its defenders have left. It's the only tool left in their toolbox. Once you've exhausted the "But Hamas!" and "But October 7!" excuses they make for Israel's deliberate butchery of civilians via airstrikes and siege warfare, false accusations of hating Jews is all that remains.
And it's so sick, because it exploits a healthy impulse in those of us who oppose racism and genocide, and does so *in order to defend racist acts of genocide*. It causes people who care deeply about human rights to take a step back and say "Hold on, am I guilty of embodying the same hateful prejudices which led to the Holocaust?" and shuts us down and shuts us up, even as Israel rolls out its own holocaust against Palestinians.
It exploits a noble, healthy inclination we cultivate in ourselves in good faith in order to support the horrific genocidal nightmare in Gaza in entirely bad faith. It exploits our good nature to advance a profoundly evil cause. It's despicable. It's depraved.
But fewer and fewer people are buying it. There's only so many times the boy can falsely cry wolf before the villagers stop running to his defense. Hopefully this desensitization that Israel and its apologists have created doesn't have dark consequences in the future. It's just one more ugly thing they have birthed into the world that the rest of us will have to bring consciousness to.
Predictably a) Obfuscating the whole Jewish faith with pro-Israeli State Policy - for false accusations of antisemitism and b) Obfuscating a genuine concern for human rights and indiscriminate murder with "pro-Hamas". I DEPLORE 7 Oct as I do Israel's current actions, and continued murder is not going to destroy Hamas. Show some humanity.
https://sleekitscotsman.substack.com/i/139421453/pro-palestine-is-pro-human-rights-and-international-law-not-pro-hamas
You speak in highly abstract meaning, and when quoted in such insular terms, is simply meaningless jargon - in other words trying to baffle with BS. Having lived for much of life under extremists, the likes of which you support, and then you quote South Africa as a country of morals, explains much. Such corrupt countries you would expect to support extremist views. Thank you for clearly stating your true moral stance
South Africa - let's agree to differ - noting ANY other country could refer Israel to the ICJ for genocide based on multiple opinions.
The actual point of Catilin's post is false accusations of antisemitism. So remove the first two lines of her statement to keep yourself happy, and you're left with Israel's response to anyone who would have raised that claim or others similar - patently untrue.
Other point you haven't addressed - you continue to conflate those who call for a humanitarian ceasefire with "Hamas Supporters".
So in addition to pro-Palestinian HUMAN rights supporters (as I've said above NOT Pro-Hamas) I suppose that 153 countries of the United Nations voting for a Ceasefire v 10 voting against (including Israel, US) are Hamas supporters completely wrong? Including 30 countries who switched their previous abstention to a Yes Ceasefire vote on 12 Dec.
https://sleekitscotsman.substack.com/i/139421453/dec-un-security-council-resolution-humanitarian-access-at-scale
But of course rubbishing and discrediting the UN is official Israeli Government policy, taken up locally here by pro-Israeli lobby groups as per my other thread.
The UN has yet to suitably condemn Hamas. The vast majority of those that sit on the UN represent countries run by dictators and many support extremists. So lets use common sense with regard to UN commentary. It cannot be trusted and has become worthless in world equality and peace.
Let's use common sense then re. the UN (parking from a moment your assertion that of the 194 countries "a vast majority" are run by dictators... ): 153 countries - voting YES for a ceasefire are they all wrong Hamas-supporting dictatorships? (noting only 98 of them would have needed to vote YES to pass the resolution - so let's assume 98 aren't Hamas supporting dictatorships for a minute).
Forgetting the semantics of condemning people by name (which by the way I agree should be done), an actual ceasefire to stop the killing is more important than offending someone.
Likud’s 1977 founding document reveals its position that:
… between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
Of course, this was written in 1977 – but critics of Hamas don’t afford it this concession vis-a-vis its 1988 charter. While this Likud statement doesn’t possess the racist sentiments of the Hamas charter, the practical implications denying the possibility of two states co-existing are more or less the same.
Lest we think that the Likud’s 1977 position is anachronistic, its 1999 electoral platform reiterates that:
The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.
Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem.
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
This platform has never been rescinded. Current Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu was also exposed in a 2001 video bragging that he “stopped the Oslo Accords” after receiving US guarantees that Israel would not be required to withdraw from “specified military locations” – chosen by himself, including the whole of the Jordan Valley/eastern border of the West Bank – in exchange for signing the 1997 Hebron Agreement.
https://theconversation.com/israels-policy-on-statehood-merits-the-same-scrutiny-as-hamas-gets-33897
This is so powerful, Clementine, thank you for sharing this transcription.
Thank you for this. Unfortunately these facts rarely get reported in mainstream media.
I was wondering if you have had much backlash for the stance you’ve taken?